Help me pick a classic ski concept that is easy AND fast?

World Cup Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 580

Hi gang,

I am a skater foremost, but I intend to participate in next season's Nationals (small skiing nation) also in the classic technique. I could have taken part last week, but had all of 1 lesson experience, and just 3km of trying it beforehand.

4 groups were formed after a ski-by along the coaches, I got group 2 (only rookie there, by far) but I was well fastest and possibly most technical of the group anyway. The skis made it easy, but too slow to use for longer than a minute at a time, for me at least.

Next time I classic, I will be bringing only my fitness to the game, and no experience to speak of, but it would be nice to be quick enough anyway.

I am looking for nice-price skis that will be :
- no wax for sure
- easy to kick
- fast enough to glide to not irritate me.
- easy to balance

I have pretty much decided I will teach myself the "Cat" classic techniques (developed by the Catski folks), which are all double pole, allowing longer skate poles and using such muscles as well as training them.

The skis I had, and sold the same week, were pretty underflexed for me. Heaps and heaps of grip, for a couple of meters glide at most Smile

They were wide, which I appreciated as much as the guy that bought them off me. Just super easy to ski on.

? - Do wider skis exist (say, 50mm) that have a name to glide really well?
? - Zero skis, totally useless when colder than -5C?
? - Wax skis, with tape? I can deal with tape if it's realiable. Seems tuneable also, length of grip zone taped?
? -I'm looking for 95% of the glide speed, with better kick than waxed skis, and the easy of use from skate skis. Can I have that, or is it a 2 our of 3 deal?

I see some Atomic Pro Classic skis, wax an G2, for nice prices. Like EUR120 shipped, with bindings. I really like the Atomic Pro Skates that are of similar build philosophy I suppose. Just so easy to work with, and fast enough, it seems.
Or is a better base worth it for race speed?

Being Dutch I hardly get snow time at all, so I'll certainly focus most of that on skating. Classic may be a fun change of pace, and certainly a reason to race. I like the idea of using "new" techniques, to make it more like skating, possibly raising an eyebrow here and there. Really, diagonal is quite unnatural to me, I always knew it would be, I also can't hill bound worth much.
Dealing with bad glide though, I can't see myself coming back for more...

thanks for any advice!

J

xcskiforum 40K Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Posts: 299

I'd say you need a waxless ski and a waxable ski (1 pair of each). The waxables will be the fastest in most conditions, but when the grip wax conditions get hard, you can always switch over to the waxless. The key with waxless is getting a pair that's not too soft. (Mine are too soft and drag prett bad.)

Today I skied on next year's Atomics (waxless). They were called something like the 47s, but Atomic may also make a racing version. They kicked really well and didn't have a lot of drag. Atomic also has a "hairy" ski, the Multi, and Fischer calls it the zero. These are good for today's conditions of 0c and new snow. I would not go with wider skis since (I believe) they're definitely not intended for racing.

I also believe the fit of a classic ski depends on skill level. So for a beginner, you'll need a softer ski than a more experienced skier. It's important that the person fitting the ski knows your ski level. Often people will fit everyone the same, but I believe raw beginners have a hard time kicking a properly fitting ski. Sometimes you can make up for it by using warmer wax, but not always.

My two cents,

Jay

World Cup Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 580

Thanks for your input Jay.

Don't over-estimate my skiing : I reckon in a good year, I will spend 30km TOTAL doing classic. Including the race. Unless I get good snow at home, or a race ends up being longer than the recent 7.5km.
I really think life is too short for me right now to be dealing with the hard wax, let alone klister for the day. Classic a side show of a freak show for me.
Glad to score 150km of on snow skating. I'm not at just 35 days on snow. Some of them being totally beat, due to it being clustered in weeks.

My little reasoning for grip tape on waxable skis were that I could trim the lenght, to get the amount of kick I need for maximum speed. Indeed I could get stiff skis, and just go crazy with the tape as needed.

I totally like the easyness of the new hairy skis, although I suppose getting them fitted well will be needed. Being a budget shopper, and hundreds of miles (not owning a car) away from any shop with ski stock, I don't see myself paying retain for something to fit me to the knot. I won't develop technique to use the last 5% of performance from such skis anyway.
I WILL get me a pair of Zero's if the deal is right. But perhaps I will get more bang for the buck with some G2, or taped ones?

How does tape work for lower temperatures, or higher ones for that matter? I would not even wear out one application in a winter. In my mind, I'd figure out where my kick zone is, apply plenty tape, and then trim on the trail with a knife and some cleaning liquid.

So now I'm itchey to order a cheap 07/08 pair of Atomic Pro Classic G2's, or some other brand of similar pricing. But I wonder if I might easily get more performance from same constuction waxable taped ones...

Thanks,

J

xcskiforum 20K Joined: 21 Apr 2009 Posts: 51

Hi,

i've tried Rex grip tape with good results here in the U.K. over the winter. this has been the best winter for a very long time and in the one place (yes, just one) that trails are groomed periodically we've had ski-able conditions since 18th december.

temperatures have ranged from -14C to +4C over this period although from mid january on they're mostly around -1C to +4C
the tape i've been trying has perfromed well throughout this range and has been very durable. it has been replaced twice after taking a hammering in hard icy conditions.

one thing i have found though is that it's very difficult to 'adjust' on the trail. i went a little too short and tried to increase the length of the tape, unfortunately, it's doesn't like being applied in cold conditions or if the ski base isn't very dry and it wouldn't adhere.

i wouldn't even attempt to try and remove the stuff on the trail. it is increadibly sticky and takes some budging even with base cleaner and scraping.

as a comparison, i have also been waxing, mostly on swix red special and violet special. i think i may have been lucky in that i've managed to obtain good kick with a nice glide on almost all occasions. i like the ability to be able to alter the kick zone easily, and removal is a breeze compared to the tape, even on the trail. application isn't at all difficult and in a perverse way, i quite enjoy feeling like a purist. i guess the downside is that it doesn't last very long before needing re-applied.

i've also had the oppotunity to use a universal klister on a couple of times. i have really enjoyed these trips and also like applying it (is this normal?) great kick and glide!

i also have a pair of waxless skis (quite scratched from skiing when i possibly shouldn't). i sometimes use these if it's been windy and the trail has lots of broken sticks on it that have been blown from the trees. these are noticablly slower than my other skis and noisier when descending as the fish scales drag a little.

if i were on a budget, i would most likely get the best pair of waxless skis that i could afford (grip wax costs extra) you know you're going to get grip. maybe not as great as perfect kick wax but still a good kick and you don't have to worry about the snow conditions and temperature, just don't forget to hot wax the glide zones.

if you want to go down the waxing route, then tape is a great way to start, as it covers such a wide temperature range and works well it aviods having to re-wax if it gets warmer/colder, just try it first before you race to make sure the kick zone is the right length.

i hope my rambling will help you to make your choice. good luck!!

World Cup Joined: 01 Dec 2006 Posts: 580

Very nice report indeed, Jasper, thanks!

And, congrats on your winter! Here in NL I've had a few on-snow days, but not like in the north where folks had weeks.
Today I woke up to the frustrating 2-3cm that is just useless.

Hmmm, I seem to have over-estimated the ease of working with tape, but for you, it did end up being faster than fishscales, and more durable than wax? Could be an interesting trade-off... Once in place, my tape might last 2-3 winters providing I avoid icey conditions.

Did you end up with the tape being longer, shorter, or the same as a normal wax pocket?

Cheers from across the Channel,

J

xcskiforum 20K Joined: 21 Apr 2009 Posts: 51

hi,

i ended up taping to the same length as for regular wax, having quickly discovered that good kick equals a nice skiing experience and slipping does not!

if you are only skiing classic a little it may well last you a long time although i have no idea if the stuff degrades over a couple of years.

remember to keep the backing tape once removed as you'll need it to cover up the wax for storage, it gets very sticky at warmer temperatures.

i got my tape from here:

http://www.xc-elitesports.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_73_37_43&products_id=78&osCsid=9adf2475a6156206d7867fd3de40c5f6

fine and handy for you as they're in the Netherlands. i've also got stuff from:
http://www.sportalbert.de

both places offer a good service, i've found.

do you have any other good stores to add to the list as i have to get most of my equipment from mainland europe. my skis for example i had to special order in the U.K. and you can imagine how much fun that was!!

cheers.

xcskiforum 10K Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 4

Dont use the catski technique... Catski technique is made for gliding on iron rods over grass- which is opposite of whats good Watch some videos of any decent classic skiers and try to mimic what they do. Classic skiing is simple if you want it to be... and Fischer RCS crowns are your best bet for a fast waxless ski.